I was thinking, before making a decision myself and speaking via the red phone to the boss, that it might be a good idea to ask all members first in the forums.
I was thinking it might be a good idea to stop comments and votes on give aways till at least 1 hour after they start.
Some users give it a thumbs down or a thumbs up before trying the app/game.
Some comments such as 'first to post', 'this is a great give away' or even 'this sucks' I think are unfair.
Tell me what you think.
BuBBy
offlineAdministrator
I think part of the problem is that there is no explanation what "voting for an app" is referring to. Considering votes are submitted (on the webpage) right above the "download" link - is it any wonder people vote before downloading? People get to the "voting" part before the "downloading" part.
Maybe if the current rating/votes were displayed at the top of the form with the download link - but to submit a vote, the thumbs up/down appeared at the very end of the page - after the "submit a comment" section.
Part of the responsibility for useless comments appearing on the front page must lie with the moderators. Obviously the "usual" throwaway comments that always rate in the negatives (eg -20 and lower) should guide the moderators on the type of comment that are considered "useless", frustrate and waste the time of site visitors. Moderators should use their discretion and not include these posts on the list.
Alternatively display only posts considered useful (positive ratings). Include a link at the end of all the "useful" comments for a separate page with the remaining (negative rated) comments. This would be just a simple "selection criteria". If user votes push a comment rating below a set value (eg -2) then the comment will only appear on the "other" comment list. Comments can be promoted to the "main" list if enough positive votes raise the rating above the threshold amount.
This way users can contribute to making the main body of comments to be more useful.
Of course some users will complain and would rather have all the comments (useful and not) together and unsorted on one page (and double the reading). Perhaps an option could be set and tracked via a cookie (or user account settings) for the alternate unsorted (all together) comment display.
I just know that at the end of the day - I just want to spend 10 minutes reading the 5% of useful comments - and the remaining 95% is usually just a waste of time.
headman
offlineMember
I hate to sound cynical, but let's face it - this is a people problem.
This site has been around nearly a year now, and from the beginning its purpose was clearly stated. Whenever there were problems or changes with the site it was announced for everyone to read. Not just on a particular day, but permanently posted for anyone who cares to look. The sad truth is, not too many people seem to care to look beyond the word "free".
There are still folks who can't download because they won't bother to read the readme.txt file. There are those who freely admit in their comments that they automatically click "thumbs-up" to show support for GOTD, or "thumbs-down" because it involves dwarves, with no regard for a program's quality and without even trying it. It's more of a gut response than an honest opinion.
The usefulness quota option has become, well, useless. You could post a recipe for muffins, and as long as you ended it with "STOP WHINING, IT'S FREEEEEE!!!!" people would find it wildly useful.
Even today (8/18) there are still people wondering why there's a game in the non-game section. And for every person who isn't interested in reading what the site is about or what's going on here, there are three waiting to give them hell in their fifth comment of the day.
Okay, I take back what I said before. It would seem I'm quite fond of sounding cynical, after all. What I wanted to say was that even though some really good ideas for improving this site have been put forth, I don't think anything will help unless the people who come here take the time to read before they click and realize what a great idea this project was, and could still be, if the site was used as the GOTD folks intended.
It's just not cricket. It's not, as P.G. Wodehouse (and Lee) might say, the straight bat.
One hour will do nothing.
For the "First post!" people: They'll figure it out, and adjust accordingly. They're mostly gone now anyway.
For the "I'm downloading it now" people: This'll do nothing - not every wakes up at the same time, and don't forget to factor in timezones.
If you really want to make sure people download before commenting, cookie them or something. Maybe even give out a code when the installer is done (something like how the activation process sometimes goes) and have people use it to be able to comment.
Perhaps even encouraging people to review the software, rather than just commenting on it, might help.
Either way, there's no working around the "Du-uh, it sux/rox" people.
clobermier
offlineMember
I like the idea of giving a code to use when the installer is done before people are allowed to comment, like Keilaron suggested. There's no way past it, and incredibly large percentage of the people posting seem to be unable to read or comprehend the instructions either on this site or in the read me files, and so many seem to click the thumbs up just because they like the idea of the software offered, or else they hate "stupid" screensavers and want the world to know they hate them. I could not believe that people are still asking why a game is in the regular software section. It's mind-boggling some days.
It might be better if people had to log in to comment, as we do for the forums, but it's still not going to stop all the nonsense. People might not be able to understand simple directions, like to post only about the software, but they'll still find a way around controls. However, to post reviews on many software sites, like download.com, you have to log in. Just a thought.
I was thinking it might be a good idea to put something more explicit about writing an actual software review, as right now it just says "Please comment only the software here. If you have technical problems or suggestions on our project, please leave us a note in our forums." And that's only in one place, right above the box where you are to write the review. Maybe put something on the main page? Add more to those instructions? Oh, heck, I don't know. I get the feeling nothing is going to work, Lee. I do wish that the whole voting system would be taken away, too, because that's also become pretty useless. I've read good reviews that have a negative rating, and then there are the posts that say, BE NICE! IT'S FREE! that have a positive rating.
I miss the days when Giveaway first started.
Cindy
headman
offlineMember
It's a sad situation. If I was trying to establish a reputation for my software, this site would seem perfect at first. But after reading a few days worth of comments I'd probably have second thoughts. I think that is why you see an increasingly small number of developers on here, and why the really good and original programs are becoming increasingly rare. And the knob-heads who are scaring the developers away are the ones who raise the most hell when they aren't offered the software of their dreams.
Unfortunately, the people running this site might not want to alienate the knob-heads because they represent a huge amount of traffic. The type of mindless traffic that love to click on everything they see. They aren't interested in helping the site achieve its goal or improve. They want free stuff and they want everyone to see how clever they can be. If that is made difficult for them they might stay away and that would be a massive loss in traffic. Knob-head traffic is traffic nonetheless.
A Catch-22 if there ever was one.
Like I (and clobermier) said, I think it would be a good idea to put more emphasis on writing reviews of the software. Perhaps if the comment box only appeared after having clicked on something like "I have downloaded and tried the software, and am ready to review this software", without necessitating registration/login.
This will not only encourage better comments, but also give the moderations a damned good reason to delete inappropriate, unfair and useless comments.
What say you?
headman
offlineMember
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for anything that would make the comments section more useful. I'm just saying that the admins might view the stupid traffic as a necessary evil. And that, admittedly, is a guess.
I don't have any better suggestions than yours, and I wish the powers that be would try something - anything - to remedy the situation. Or at least explain why they won't.
Maybe there should be a contest to find the best method for weeding out the knob-heads without making it overly difficult for everyone else to use the site.
BuBBy
offlineAdministrator
maz - I agree 100% (Problem is - when I read some of the comments that get posted, I am sure they were never checked by a moderator. Somebody could post "banana banana banana" and it would appear as a comment for the giveaway).
@ maz - I support you fully. I'd wish the moderators could filter out those useless/ junk comments. Or why not extend the comment moderation to the rest of the GOTD staff to help in moderating. This could spread the workload...
I've seen some comments on another website previously, which goes like this:
1st Person: Me first! HaHa!!
2nd Person: me Second! Ha!Ha!
3rd Person: me third! Haha!
:
:
until the 10th or 11th person. And the moderators didn't do anything about it.
If you want to know the website: http://mobile9.com
One more thing, before I want to post a reply on the forum, can I preview my post first? Like adding a Preview button somewhere... :)
BuBBy
offlineAdministrator
I am sure they were never checked by a moderator. Somebody could post "banana banana banana" and it would appear as a comment for the giveaway
In case you didn't believe me.
clobermier
offlineMember
BuBBY, when I saw that you'd posted "banana banana banana" I nearly spit my coffee out on the screen. That cracked me up.
Lee, was it Sasha that monitored the front page before? That's one name I remember seeing a very long time ago, but I'm not sure if he were an actual monitor or someone who worked for GAOTD. Other than that, I have no clue who might monitor the front page, if anyone.
Cindy
emperor
offlineMember
I agree that the scoring/rating/button pressing of the front page needs to be made more useful, as I find it tedious to wade through a lot of junk to find the pearls of wisdom, but I don't see how it can be down without a lot of hands-on input from the moderators.
I see the need for some, such as myself, to get to the useful stuff easily, yet I also see the possibly conflicting need to generate site traffic.
Therefore I would suggest, if it is at all practicable, that there be two pages for comments. There would be only one place for entering comments, with more explicit information about the purpose of the comments solicited, but the content would determine which of the two pages the comment appeared on.
One page would be where the generally unhelpful 'I will definitely download this' type could appear, so that the commenter couldn't complain that their inoffensive comment was deleted, whilst the other page would be the one to which the review type comments were directed. Thus people could read the reviews for information on a dedicated page, and the other page for entertainment. Those who post for the sake of it would then still be able to see their name and be happy, but without cluttering things up for others. The review comments page should then be the one that appears with the download details.
This way I think prgram developers will also be able to see the helpful criticism and encouragement in an easily accessible way and be able to see that people are taking them seriously and being supportive.
The big question would then be, how to do the directing to either page with minimum effort.
Those are my thoughts for what they are worth.
As the comments are moderated, couldn't the moderator simply delete all the useless comments e.g. this looks good..I'm downloading this etc, which make it obvious that the
author hasn't even tried out the program? = italics
I agree too. With proper moderation this will work. Then you can leave out the "Posters ratings". Thats a joke to begin with. Why rate a posters post? Let the mod's munch'em!
headman
offlineMember
There was a time when I thought that moderarating the comments section must be some God-awful herculean task of epic proportions. Experience has shown me, however, that with a little practice you can fly right through it. The comments here have become so predictable and repetitive that you only have to skim over a few words to see if it's crap or not. If the admins don't want to deal with it I wish they would at least make an appearance to address the issue and give their opininions.
I also agree with Archangel and others who say the "useful comment" system is garbage. Commentor #12 in today's section had the audacity to complain about it. Last time I checked, he had a -119 rating.
The knob-heads walk among us. Nothing will save the front page except good old-fashioned, hands-on moderation.
.
BuBBy
offlineAdministrator
Commentor #12 in today's section had the audacity to complain about it. Last time I checked, he had a -119 rating.
Well the previous day, (Comment #7) I scored a -55 for saying "Banana Banana Banana" - so my comment was twice as useful (so far) as todays #12 (todays comment likely had more thought behind it, though)
Of course, to the people "in the know" who follow the forums - my comment actually did have a useful purpose (in relation to this thread). I'd say if the (at least) 55 people who gave it the thumbs down we a little more widely read - that comment could've scored +100. ;)
(Looking at the totals for the day - at least some users found "Banana Banana Banana" to be a useful review of the software).
If someone had time - maybe a quick GreaseMonkey script to separate the +ve from the -ve. It would be a start....
Wahahahaha! the comment #12 scored a total of (-125) pts. But what the commenter said was quite true though. :)
Face
offlineMember
Here's a thought:
What if there was a choice offered as to where the person wished to post, such as -
Our comments section has been split for your convenience. You may now choose to:
____ discuss the software
____ post a review
(leading to two different pages)
This would allow posts which weren't reviews to be edited out or moved to the other page.
You could also require a person to register to use the second one, if desired.
Most of the useless prattle and whining would probably end up in the first category by default (because it is listed first) and sounds more interactive and because the second one sounds more technical and "only for geeks" so they would tend to avoid it.
BuBBy
offlineAdministrator
The "discuss the software" option could redirect them to the forums where users could "ask a question" or get help if they have problems with the software. hmmm, doesn't that happen already :/
The "discuss the software" option could redirect them to the forums where users could "ask a question" or get help if they have problems with the software. hmmm, doesn't that happen already :/
Not enough come here. I notice comments that are not comments everyday. You all have too. A forced link is another idea.
clobermier
I have no idea who moderates front page.
I think we should have global moderators myself.
I write this with respect to time zones.
Myself, I am in one time zone BuBBy is in anohter and well... seems like we could do with 2 moderators in each time zone at least.
I bagzee, ''Super Mod though'' :|
Hey Lee,,,,,,,,,is there a "British Slang made Easy" for us Americans? LOL I'm not familiar with "bagzee" either!
The timezone thing is a good idea that way you'd have coverage around the clock but there is a big drawback. You'd have alot of moderators and there would have to be very well written guidelines to go by though. One might snip or remove when another wouldn't then there would be more gripping because GOTD wasn't fair.
I cover usually, from (GMT) 5 a.m. to sometimes 12 a.m.
I may not be logged in, however, I do read every 20 minutes comments made here.
So I could always cover GMT 8 a.m. to say 8 p.m. BuBBy usually covers Aussie time, so there needs to be some fillers, for the uncovered gaps.
As for bagzee it's something I picked up as a child, meaning 'I want'.
Face
offlineMember
What I was suggesting (and I know I could have made it clearer) was that the "discuss the software" choice would go to the place it does now and the "review the software" discussion could possibly have a daily thread here. I know the instructions on the page now read:
"Please comment only the software here. If you have technical problems or suggestions on our project, please leave us a note in our forums."
But that page could be opened up to include technical problems, freeware alternatives and the mish-mash of topics that (as seen there everyday) there seems to be an interest in discussing. I would argue that discussions involving problems with downloading, questions about possible viruses (and the like) should remain on that page, where newcomers to the site, along with people new to computers can easily find what they need.
That way the people who want to download, skim through what others have said and jot off a quick note won't have to change their behavior, but they will know where to go if they want to read the serious reviews. And the people who are interested only in reading the reviews and adding their own (along with the developers) will be directed here - where most of the serious discussions occur anyway. There have been notes in other threads here concerning the negative impression software developers (present and future) may get of the site as they sift through comments there and how they may think twice about offering more software. It may be best if they are directed straight here - as some have already figured out.
I think you have to consider which group of people it will be easier to change the behavior of - and set it up to take advantage of that (which lets the rest continue with what they are already doing).
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