Questions about Copyright-Infringing Software

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Questions about Copyright-Infringing Software

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Started 14 years ago by squinky86
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squinky86
Member

I've noticed that the last few software titles, particularly:
Sothink HD Video Converter
EASEUS Partition Master
Gold Audio Extractor

all contain GPL or open-sourced code that has been modified, without releasing the source code. This violates the GPL and the copyrights of the free programs. Sothink and Gold Audio Extractor both use the FFmpeg project with --enable-gpl, and EASEUS uses the cdrtools project and modified libraries. I posted proof at the following forums:
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/expired-deals/1000072/
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/expired-deals/1000264/
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/free-stuff/1000463/

Does Giveaway of the Day know that it's violating copyrights by posting these software titles? One would seem coincidental. Two would get suspicious. Three, though, seems excessive!

Posted 14 years ago #
goodgotd
Member

is GAOTD supposed to be another ruling body A La Microsoft, or would you rather they try to limp on as a project?

depending on the rubber ruler you use (or what you use the software for as a ruler) many of the items that come by are illegal, immoral, or fattening in the country the user's in.

if you're that het up about it, get off the stick and sign your name to a 'hey, you!' campaign. And while you're at it, teach microsoft a lessen or three, huh?

Posted 14 years ago #
StevieD
Member

Squinky, when you say you've "noticed" that these software titles use GPL coding, how did you "notice" that Easeus Partition Pro does? I can't speak about either of the others you "noticed" as I haven't loaded them but I'm interested in the one that I did.

Posted 14 years ago #
squinky86
Member

StevieD: I noticed that the directory structure was similar to unix-based systems (a /lib and /bin directory), then saw binaries and libraries installed that I knew were open sourced (some projects I've sent patches and code to before). For EASEUS, I saw cdrtools binaries. When I ran some programs on them (like "strings"), I saw that they were modified binaries from the cdrtools project. I then looked for the source code or a mention of the cdrtools license, but there was none on the website nor in the program itself.

Like I said, I just installed the program and thought some of the binaries and libraries it installed were suspicious. Upon further investigation, my suspicions were confirmed.

Posted 14 years ago #
squinky86
Member

goodgotd: This has nothing to do with Microsoft, but everything to do with stealing and selling someone else's code.

Posted 14 years ago #
StevieD
Member

Interesting point about stealing squinky as VirginiaDC is telling everyone how to break the licence agreement from GAOTD just nine posts above yours in the Easeus thread you posted.?

Posted 14 years ago #
squinky86
Member

StevieD: ++
You won't find me defending that type of behavior. I do believe that the "We can do it because he did it, too" argument is a non-sequitur argument. I merely posted in those forums first because those were the forums in which I was alerted to the software that was available here on giveawayoftheday.com. If you have problems with fatwallet posting instructions for violating the gaotd licenses, I highly recommend that you contact them. The owners there are extremely nice, and would want to hear from you.

Posted 14 years ago #
sys-eng
Member

squinky:

How do you know that EASEUS Partition Master is an infringment on someone's copyright?

Not doubting you, just would like to see the proof.

Posted 14 years ago #
squinky86
Member

sys-eng:
Sure, I understand - no problem. I posted most of the details here:
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/expired-deals/1000264/

The short version is that, if you look in the "/bin" directory of where EASEUS was installed, you'll see quite a few binaries that match up with binary names from the cdrtools package created by Joerg Schilling. This in itself isn't technically a violation of cdrtools' license, but when you dig deeper, you'll see that these are modified files:
$ ./cdrecord.exe --version
Cdrecord-Clone 2.01-EASEUS (i686-pc-mingw32) Copyright (C) 1995-2004 J?rg
Schilling
NOTE: this version of cdrecord is an inofficial (modified) release of
cdrecord and thus may have bugs that are not present in the original
version. Please send bug reports and support requests to EASEUS <
support@easeus.com>. The original author should not be bothered with
problems of this version.

$ ./ScanBusId.exe --version
cdrecord: Warning: using inofficial libscg transport code version
(easeuss-SPTI-
$Revision: 1.9 $ '@(#)$Id: cdrecord-aspi.patch,v 1.9 2004/09/10 11:11:43
yuri Exp $').
As you can see, EASEUS even states that it's a modified version of cdrtools, but they don't have the source code for their modifications released. This violates cdrtools' license.

I emailed Joerg Schilling about this, and his short answer was (I'm only posting the end of his email to me):
No, of course this is not permitted.
I am also wondering, why such a company uses such extremely old versions.
Jörg
I believe that this is sufficient proof that EASEUS violates Mr. Schilling's copyright on the software.

Oh yeah, one more thing - libscg is GPL software, too, and they admit to using a modified form of it.

Posted 14 years ago #
Archangel
Member

Open Source is simply that. A lot of software writers post their stuff on the net so anyone can download and modify it legally. in other words they arnt supporting it anymore and gave it openly.

Posted 14 years ago #
squinky86
Member

Archangel: Your misunderstanding of copyright law and the GPL is dumbfounding.

"Open Source", particularly the GPL, does not mean, "Ok, you can take it, modify it, then sell it without releasing the source code."

Posted 14 years ago #
GMMan, Hexadecimal Blacksmith
Blocked

The GPL still hasn't set in in my mind (already read it three times), though I think it isn't absolutely necessary to release the source code of the parent program (or am I missing the point?). It would be a great first step to acknowledge open-source software, and then post the source code of the modified open-source code.

Posted 14 years ago #
squinky86
Member

GMMan:
I don't know how much more clear the GPL can be on this issue. If you released a modified GPL program, you are required to also release the source. That concept is very clear. If you're having trouble with it, there's also a GPL FAQ that can clarify it for you. Click on that link to go directly to the question you're asking.

Posted 14 years ago #
Archangel
Member

LOL I just bit! squinky86 your funny. ROTFL

Posted 14 years ago #
Archangel
Member

These c/p's are from your link dude. You need to take the time to read all the material before you post it.

Can I have a GPL-covered program and an unrelated non-free program on the same computer?
Yes.

If I know someone has a copy of a GPL-covered program, can I demand he give me a copy?
No. The GPL gives him permission to make and redistribute copies of the program if he chooses to do so. He also has the right not to redistribute the program, if that is what he chooses.

Posted 14 years ago #
aRenegade
Member

Hello Squinky86,

GOTD has no liability regarding the copyright infringement issues you’ve referred to. GOTD are not partnered with any developer. Here’s the counter argument. Let's say you own a web site, and on your site is a Google ad. The entity that paid Google for the advertising infringed on a patent or used a trade name that someone else had licensed. So are you caught up in those legalities because you gave up some bandwidth and allowed Google to put that on your site? Are you profiting directly from the sales of the developer’s program? I think not, and the same applies to your argument here. Have a nice day... ;)

- Renegade -

Posted 14 years ago #
squinky86
Member

Archangel:
I'm not sure what you're talking about. We're talking about a single software title, in this case pick any of the three from the original post, modifying or linking to GPL software and not releasing the modified code. It has nothing to do with multiple pieces of software on the same computer. The question of free and non-free software existing on the same computer has no relevance to what we're talking about here.

aRenegade:
I agree with much of what you're saying. However, the argument of ignorance is not one I particular like. Being ignorant of copyright-violating software once or twice is understandable, but GOTD did it three times in a row. I'd really like to see more diligence in making sure they distribute software that is legal. Maybe this is just wishful thinking, though.

GOTD has also distributed software which violates the DMCA. Distribution or discussion of a "circumvention device" is technically illegal under the DMCA, putting at least some level of liability on them. Hopefully the DMCA will be ruled unconstitutional soon, but I really like the idea behind GOTD, I don't want to see it get taken down by some of the less reasonable laws in the US. Is GOTD based in the US? (Note: A device qualifies as an illegal "circumvention device" under the DMCA if it advertises its ability to circumvent copyright detection. Next time you see a piece of software on GOTD that advertises its ability to extract CSS-encrypted DVDs, I am willing to place a wager that the software title is not from the US.) (Note2: These provisions of the DMCA are unenforced.)

Posted 14 years ago #
Archangel
Member

The only thing I see that "may" be wrong is not releasing the source code. If thats what you want squinky86 they have a link to file a complaint. I don't see any wrong doing on GOTD's part.

Posted 14 years ago #
aRenegade
Member

Squinky86,

It’s neither GOTD’s job nor obligation to investigate the legality of a piece of software they nominate. I’ll say it once again. GOTD is as guilty in what you claim they do as you would be by putting up a link to a download site on yours. Given that logic then ashraf would be equally guilty doing what he does because he publishes recommendations regarding the programs GOTD nominates for that day and presents links to alternatives. He may be guilty of poor technical writing, but culpable when the alternatives he recommends are created from ripped off source codes? I think not. For that matter what about all the other people who regularly post alternative programs to a day’s giveaway. Or how about the people who run Softpedia, CNET’s Download.com site, etc. Are they guilty because they post links to programs where any of their visitors can get to a download point or download it right from those sites? You are way off base on this crusade my friend and I would compare what you’re doing to an ambulance chasing attorney.

In all of your arguments you have yet to even address what the liability should be and what kind of damages should be awarded. It’s not enough to merely allege “hey this person screwed that person” because it’s a third party allegation. For any infringement the burden is on the developer to show how some other entity infringed on a copyright they hold, AND that it directly cost them lost income. Let’s not also forget that neither you nor I are 100% positive that a disclaimer isn’t in place for GOTD to protect themselves as web site operators. Disclaimers such as:

“By providing links to other sites, [fill in the blank] does not guarantee, approve or endorse the information or products available at these sites, nor does a link indicate any association with or endorsement by the linked site to [fill in the blank].”

Does that strike a note of familiarity to you? If it doesn’t, it came from the operators of Fatwallet.com. If you want to be a standard bearer for the righteous you should at least be willing to stand by those ideals yourself. People are so quick to condemn but rarely are they as quick to vindicate. People here have made counter arguments that you yourself agreed with. But have you gone back to those forums where you posted your so called “proof” to post that information? I think not. I could just as easily say that your comment is bigoted and discriminatory for singling out Chinese developers as if no other ethnic group commits theft of another’s intellectual property. I’d would be more than curious to see the source of the statistics you used to make that claim. Many people find things like that offense and I’m one of those people. I can also confidently say that other’s in this forum community are equally offended by ethnic racists.

I’m not coming down on you nor is my post meant as any kind of a personal diss because philosophically I think your heart is in the right place. So in that sense it’s an admirable trait; and I’m sincere when I write that. However, when speaking philosophically there is no such thing as libel or slander. I would suggest in future crusades it would be wise to better understand those differences, and to help you in that endeavor here’s a link I hope you will find informational: http://www.tfd.com/libel Have A Nice Day! ;)

- Renegade -

Posted 14 years ago #
squinky86
Member

Archangel:
It's not that it "may be" a violation, but that it "is" a violation. If the software titles also distributed source code, there would not be an issue.

aRenegade:
You put words in my mouth that were not said.

I have contacted GOTD before, and they ignore me when I inform them of a software title that is violating copyrights.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that, once someone is informed that they are distributing copyright-violating software from China (as China does not enforce copyright laws), they can throw their hands up, plead ignorance, and continue to do so?

I challenge this line of thinking. I understand the part about pleading ignorance, but no action is being taken to remove illegal software from this site. Do you really think that GOTD should not remove software that they now know is illegal? No, the original infringement wasn't their fault, and ignorance wipes away any threat of liability, but to take no action when presented with information that software they're distributing is illegal raises serious morality questions. Even the examples you cite (e.g. cnet) removes software titles when they realize that there's a license or dmca violation. That's the way to do it, and I applaud them for their diligence in protecting developers who get their code stolen.

I'd like to see GOTD do something similar - if a software title is found to be illegal or infringing upon another author's copyright, it should not be nominated to appear on the site again. Is this not a reasonable recommendation?

Please do not portray my arguments as being a "crusade" against GOTD - as I said, I like the concept of the site. My issue is more with the software that GOTD is distributing, then my second (but not as major) issue is with the ignorance of my requests to GOTD. That is why I'm posting this to a public forum - hopefully someone can do something about software titles that violate copyrights on this site. I'd even be happy to run a quick audit of software before it gets posted on the site to make sure it's not breaking copyrights; so would many other volunteers.

P.S.: The keywords for the definition of libel are "false" and "untrue." I challenge you to find something I have said that I did not back up. I believe that my conclusions and reasoning are grounded in fact.

P.S.S.: You state:
But have you gone back to those forums where you posted your so called “proof” to post that information? I think not. I could just as easily say that your comment is bigoted and discriminatory for singling out Chinese developers as if no other ethnic group commits theft of another’s intellectual property.
First, I will not defend FW. Second, I have done exactly what you claim I have not done. Please do not portray my actions as being inconsistent. Third, and this is a key difference, FW does not distribute the software; GOTD does. Fourth, You also claim that my comments may be bigoted or discriminatory. I have answered similar claims pointing out that I am just as against the governments and infringers in other countries. You'll also see me rail against Antigua for not enforcing the law and letting infringers do what they want. I assure you that this is not a racial issue, but rather, an anti-Chinese-government issue. I have nothing against the Chinese people who are good and moral.

P.S.S.S.: Softpedia is based in and owned in Romania, another country that does not enforce copyrights, to avoid copyright issues with what they post. This is the first time I've encountered softpedia... I will definitely investigate this further.

Note: I edited this post a lot. I'm very sorry about some of the harsh tones, especially in my previous revisions. Seeing racially charged words directed at me, even if only suggestive, gets my blood boiling. I do believe that anyone who looks at my body of work will agree that I do not have a racist bone in my body. I'm not much of a dog person, so maybe you can portray me as a "doggist," but I'm definitely not bigoted in any way. I also don't think aRenegade was trying to portray me as a racist, but I don't want anyone to misinterpret it as I originally did.

Posted 14 years ago #
aRenegade
Member

Squinky86,

First of all you get in a huff over saying I put words in your mouth, but I would say that’s been your issue all along. So what does it mean when you wrote:

“but no action is being taken to remove illegal software from this site. Do you really think that GOTD should not remove software that they now know is illegal?”

How is it that you’re aware that GOTD knows the software they put up is illegal. Nothing has been established other than your rant. I looked at the things you pointed out and I can see how you thought it was an infringement, none the less, it clearly was not. I would point out that those same programs you’re targeting can be gotten from CNET as well as an entire myriad of other web sites. Have you petitioned all of those other sources? Why not because by your line of thinking it has to be a grand conspiracy and ALL those other web site operators are in on the same scam.

I will repeat what I previously wrote because you obviously failed to give yourself the time to slow down, stop, think, and respond instead of your speed read followed by an immediate emotional and highly opinionated reaction:

“Let’s not also forget that neither you nor I are 100% positive that a disclaimer isn’t in place for GOTD to protect themselves as web site operators. Disclaimers such as, “By providing links to other sites, [xxx.com] does not guarantee, approve or endorse the information or products available at these sites, nor does a link indicate any association with or endorsement by the linked site to [xxx.com].”

What did you mean when you wrote at FatWallet “More Chinese softare that infringes on copyrights and steals code.” I would be more than curious and happy to see the source of the statistics you used to make that claim (and by the way you spelled software wrong). Or how about when you wrote this, “but it's difficult to do anything about software manufacturers in China, as that country tends not to enforce copyright law.” What’s that suppose to mean? That China is a country of lawlessness without any regard for another’s intellectual property that happens nowhere else as bad. You ever been to Palo Alto California Squinky86?

I would remind you that the Chinese invented technologies involving mechanics, hydraulics, and mathematics applied to horology, metallurgy, astronomy, agriculture, engineering, music theory, craftsmanship. The Chinese had a sophisticated economic system that gave birth to paper money. And all at a time when the rest of the world couldn’t even figure out how make salt. Once again I could easily say that your comment is not about copyright issues, it’s about a bigoted and discriminatory view of Chinese developers; as if no other ethnic group commits theft of another’s intellectual property. Good thing you weren’t talking about Italians, you know how those people are, you’ll wake up some morning with a horses head in your bed or worse, talking to the fishes. By the way did you pay your “insurance” in case you have an “accident” ;;;?

Squinky86 there is an old saying, “There is never any shame for a person to admit they may be wrong, because what it does show, is they are wiser today than they were yesterday.”

Live Long & Prosper My Friend...

- Renegade -

PS - Here's a link to site I hope you find as useful as you found FatWallet to be:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

Posted 14 years ago #
wizzard_of_ozz2004
Games Master

Guys, you need to calm down and carry on with an intellectual conversation. Snide remarks and claiming racism doesn't really belong here. I can understand getting caught up in the heat of the debate, but let's try to keep our cool and calm down before we make our reply.

Posted 14 years ago #
gabbynot
Member

Renegade - I believe this 'discussion' is getting out of hand because you are doing exactly what you are accusing others with your remark "Good thing you weren’t talking about Italians, you know how those people are, you’ll wake up some morning with a horses head in your bed or worse, talking to the fishes. By the way did you pay your “insurance” in case you have an “accident” ;;;?" Just because you put a couple of winks after your statement do you think that makes it OK? That remark has nothing to do with anything being discussed here and I found it offensive.

Posted 14 years ago #
wizzard_of_ozz2004
Games Master

^^^ Exactly my point. Things get said in the heat of battle and it just builds and builds until others are affected. Guys this is your warning, if this thread doesn't get back on topic and you two aren't treating each other with the respect both of you deserve, this thread will be deleted. This is in no way to be taken in offense to any party involved. I ultimately suggest to squinky that you contact GOTD again with your concerns. None of us here in the forums are in any way affiliated with them. They rarely check the forums and this isn't really the place.

Posted 14 years ago #
Robert
StrayCat

I agree Wiz.

But I do feel that barging into a forum like squinky86 did,even ridiculing some senior members because of their supposed ignorance about GPL, goes against all forum etiquette too,even when using some fancy words.

But in a way I admire his GPL crusade ..still, up till now I can't seem to find any answers to any of squinky's statements on FW.

Back to the subject,Easeus Partition Manager only uses a modified cdrecord to burn the bootable iso file.
There's even no need for that in windows 7.

Posted 14 years ago #
squinky86
Member

aRenegade:
I have personally tried to contact GOTD. You'll find my rants against the people that abuse the lack of copyright enforcement in China, Antigua, and Romania equivalent and not racially based. If the US did not enforce copyright laws or have a week rule of law, I would rail against abusers in the US just as much. Please scroll down to the individual updates to find that lawyers are contacted for US abuses - that can't be done for abuses in the three countries I just mentioned.

Wiz:
Could you please give me an email address, phone number, or contact information for GOTD that will not be ignored? I am posting this in the public forum because they have not responded to my emails.

Robert:
I apologize for "barging into a forum" and "ridiculing some senior members." I freely admit that I am new to these forums, and don't think seniority is an issue. It was not my intent to ridicule anyone and I apologize for that.

That Easeus "only uses a modified cdrecord to burn the bootable iso file" is inconsequential to that portion of their program violating cdrtools' license.

A few quick updates on the individual violations:
Sothink is based in or around China and are known offenders of copyright and license agreements. FFmpeg has included them in their "hall of shame" for a long time.
Easeus is based in China, but not many people know about the morality of the company. The cdrtools project has been informed of their violation - hopefully they'll work together to get this issue resolved.
SuperEz, the makers of Gold Audio Extractor, also has little information about it. However, one of the alleged owners of the company appears to be in Carson City, Nevada. While the business itself does not appear to have any filings with the state there, hopefully this person will be able to work closely with the FFmpeg project to resolve the violations. The issue and details are here. Note that the FFmpeg project teams up with the SFLC (Software Freedom Law Center) when a business has American ties like this.

Posted 14 years ago #
triphammer
Member

@squinky

I have contacted GOTD before, and they ignore me

Better get used to that. You're not the only one here in the forums who's claimed that. In fact, developers GOTD has worked with, have come and visited our forums for lack of contact from the actual site. So you're not alone...

Please do not portray my arguments as being a "crusade" against GOTD

Better get used to that as well. I'm not speaking of this thread specifically, but you'll see them come out of the cracks to do exactly that.

In fact the only thing you need to get used to besides the above is the mods or admins here shutting down this thread when they feel you've said enough. It's coming.

I agree with you though... we see these lousy programs you're speaking about come along all the time and many already know they're just a lousy version of some other free program that's just rewrapped or the UI has changed.

What I'm basically saying is that the best you can hope for here is that you'll educate a few here as to what SOME of the software here consists of and what needs to be done to change that. You will not see an official response from GOTD on this issue... and you will not see that change you're looking for.

You're argument is valid... good luck with it.

Posted 14 years ago #
wizzard_of_ozz2004
Games Master

@ triphammer: The only reason this will get shut down or deleted is if the "conversation" gets too heated as it did already and I have more members complain about this thread (already had a few,) or if the problem gets resolved. Don't count on the second one.

@ squinky: I can't give you any contact information more than you've already used. As I said before, none of us have any affiliation with the GOTD owners. We know maybe just a slightly bit more than the rest, but I guarantee you it's not much.

Posted 14 years ago #
Lester (Chip)
English Mod

Please use this contact form to contact the GiveawayoftheDay team:
http://blog.giveawayoftheday.com/contact-form/

Posted 14 years ago #
squinky86
Member

triphammer:
Thanks for the insight. I didn't know that this wasn't the first time GOTD has been unresponsive. That's actually kind of a downer, but there's really not much that can be done about that.

wiz:
Sorry for getting a bit too heated before; I understand where you're coming from. I did assume that the GOTD owners frequented these forums and realize that may be a false assumption.

Chip:
I'll try to contact GOTD using that link again next time infringing software is posted, then report back here any replies I receive from the GOTD team. I'd like to wait until it's an active giveaway so the details are more relevant on distributing copyright-violating software.

Also, thanks to those (the vast majority) that have been kind, helpful, and even empathetic to this issue. I have received some very kind emails and PMs, and even responses to this thread. I very much appreciate that!

Posted 14 years ago #

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