Hobbit - firstly - I am not "an employee" here and neither is Lee. We help users - except users who arrive swinging and ready for a fight. Clearly from your first post you had a problem - and was prepared to take out whoever was nearby. Your attitude hasn't changed throughout.

Lee and I are users who moderate these forums only - so when you say that you sent a message (with the contact form - to someone else) and start off by stating that "I didn't even give the courtesy of a reply" - already you are off on the wrong foot. You don't know who you sent a message to - you don't know who you are talking to - you don't know who writes the reviews or warnings on the site - but by god... someone is going to pay for ignoring you.

Nobody in these forums has any say or control over what appears on the main website any more than you have a say over which shirt Bill Gates wears to work each day.

So you begin by attacking the wrong people - attacking people who cannot fix your problem (either with the website or MSN Groups). You really want vengeance for something...

Well I'm sorry but it's not all about you... I've just learned something new about MSN groups this morning that I didn't know. Obviously many MSN users would agree with my new findings - MSN Groups policy really bites. (Again I'm not saying you're not a lovely person... although I can see this relationship would need quite a bit of work - you seem to have some stress issues).

I fully sympathize with your plight and considering what is at stake - having your website shutdown without warning - I would say I'd rather not put at risk linking to any games (what if the reviewer makes a mistake and misses some nudity or violence?). Is it worth trusting anyones software review if it means your site could be deleted? (hot coffee anyone?)

I'm on your side - In fact I'm suprised that anyone puts up with such a large noose hanging over their site. To show I'm not all bad - I decided against reporting your site to MSN for linking to that "horrible breastfeeding" site (I'm joking). I suprised you didn't have a warning on that site link - you DO review all the sites you link to don't you?

At the end of the day, to live under the laws of MSN Groups and not get your site deleted - it's probably best you also don't risk linking to sites where you do not have control of the content - such as software library sites (shareware/freeware) there is absolutely no telling what someone might find.

However, Hobbit - I suggest you go have a nice cup of tea and a lie down. I'm not really that thick - could see the point from the start, but considering you begun by attacking the wrong people - it seemed only right that I assume I was talking to the right person also. I'm glad Judy came alone to explain the issue properly. Judy is a much better communicator, doesn't seem to have that chip on her shoulder.

Judy I will pass your concerns on. I can't promise anything (it is neither my decision or under my control), but it's the least I can do.

Have a nice day.

You never did answer my question. Is this your site, are you employees, or are you just volunteers?

The probability is very high. There are people who are jealous of any Groups success and they sit around waiting for a reason to report groups like ours to MSN. Are you really that thick that you can't get the concept that we have to be careful, not that we choose to be? I give up.

MSN groups has it's share of trolls who comb groups looking for reasons to get them shut down. If you've been on the internet any length of time, I'm sure you're familiar with the genre. It's certainly not limited to MSN. Add to the mix that groups support often doesn't investigate thoroughly before it pulls the plug and (hopefully) you can understand our concerns. If you don't, that's ok, too. I didn't come here to debate with you...just to let you know that there was a problem and see what, if anything, you could or would do about it.

It's apparent that it's not a big deal to you, but I hope you now realize why it's a big deal to us. I think we've come to some kind of understanding. We won't link to you anymore, so there shouldn't be a problem.

Community Feedback (CF) was started by MSN in 1999 as a group for them to get feedback on bugs and other problems in group. Over the next two following years it gradually evolved into a peer-to-peer help group which was well known throughout MSN. MSN left the group in December of 2001 and turned it over to three members who have gradually left or stepped down leaving the three current managers. CFontheweb.com is an extension of CF and our base membership comes through CF and our base purpose is to provide assistance to MSN Groups managers. We take our role as being the example seriously and our members know they can rely on us for straight information when everyone else, even MSN, is trying to pull the wool over their eyes. We give MSN the power because we enjoy being there to help the people who have remained loyal members and everyone else that comes to us for help.

Granted, the only concern that came up about your software was a registry cleaner you offered which we tell our members we don't recommend they use unless it is absolutely necessary, and as such we didn't link to your site that day for that program, although people knew about it and had the option to go themselves.

But what you are missing is that we are pretty much fuming at the treatment we have gotten from this site. On the day you offered Elite Freecell, the front page didn't mention there was erotic themes, just the others. It was only on the download page. I sent a contact form in that day asking if this site would consider including a warning on days there was nudity in the games so that our members and the thousands of groups managers who might have ended up linking there would know not to link to the games on those days.

Didn't even get a response. Then we come here and we're treated like crap over what is MSN's guidelines, not ours. Here is a statement from one of our members who came and read your posts here:

"I just went to that forum and read that moderator's response. What an attitude to have! I am assistant manager of a group and we were asked to remove a pic of a cartoon BABY wiggling his naked butt! It's not the managers of MSN groups that are prudes, it's MSN. "
http://groups.msn.com/communityfeedback/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=1&ID_Message=1240300&all_topics=1

Your attitudes suck. We were trying to help you out by giving you a way that MSN Groups managers could link to your site and you treated us like crap. We were planning on just deleting the single thread we've been working from and post a new thread each day so we could remove them after the downloads and not have links going there when there were games with innapropriate content. This way we could set the example for how other groups managers could also link to you. But you've pretty much shown us that you're not a place we'd want to send our enemy's let alone our friends. You don't want our business so we'll move on.

So the chances of MSN really deciding to shut your group down over a little card game on a site you mention - probably isn't that high? How would that look - the bad press - to all those users who look to you for guidance?

We've been with MSN groups since the beginning. In fact, our group was one of the two original that MSN started, then handed off to us when they outsourced groups support. MSN group members have come to depend on us and while we do chafe sometimes at the restrictions MSN imposes, we adhere to them for our members and people new to MSN who may not have a clue where to start in building their groups.

Mind you - while many games will have g8+ content - and are probably not msn safe - (even if the g8+ content is selected from an options menu) - to date there has not been a single breast in the applications and to date all applications can be advertised as msn "safe".

One thing, if you have your own dot com site, why would you choose to continue putting all your content under the control of msn who can wipe your site and shut you down without warning - if you link to a site that links to a game with "msn inappropriate" content? Why give them that power over your site if you don't have to?

And you won't be the cause of the breastfeeding site being closed down, because despite your attitudes, we don't have a problem with their content so, although we will have to remove the link we don't report groups over their content.

I do want to thank you though. If you check your hit logs you'll find this thread getting a lot of hits coming from our group. This is other group managers coming to see how you are acting. Please continue. They are loving getting a view of what you think of managers at MSN Groups who have to follow MSN's guidelines.

We do have our own dot.com, it's cfontheweb.com. but considering that all we asked was that you warn about games that had such content so that groups managers could leave the links off for those days and you've turned it into a sand box squabble, your link is being removed from there too. It is obvious that your invitation to refer friends to your site was only for your benefit and you don't care enough about their business to consider the danger you will place them in.

Let me ask you a straight question. Are you employees of this site, is it your site, or are you just some people they trust to moderate? I'd like to know because if it's your site I will absolutely go out of my way to get the word out that you're rude and could care less about the people you want coming here and if you employees, I want to make sure your employer sees how you treat their customers.

We had the influence to send you lots of people, but we don't refer our members or others who frequent our group and site to anyone who would treat their customers this way.

Oh...and you won't be the cause of us getting shut down should it happen in the future, because we aren't linking to GAOTD anymore and are advising others that due to the ac, other MSN groups shouldn't as well.

Thanks for your time and concern. :)

LOL! Well let's hope this isn't the beginning.

I do hope you understand our concerns and also understand the validity of them. It would not be a good thing to have 8 years of work vanish.

"because of your indication there is drawings now we will be reviewing it in next day or two and removing it if indeed you are correct."

Ohhh noooo I've become the Boobie Police. ;)

I hope I don't cause their site to be shut down because of this. I've never been mean to a female breast in my entire life. :(

(In terms of "getting the smackdown" - I'm not directing this at you or the other group managers who have to live with the "prudish" MSN rules - I can see what rubbish you guys are up against).

We are investigating the group that you're talking about and if they have added depictions of breasts, their link will regrettably have to be removed.

We are merely trying to inform you of why the concern and instead are getting the smackdown. Not nice fellas...it's not our rules after all...it's MSN's.

Oh..btw, we do have our own dot.com website. ;)

The deal is that due to new legislation in the United States where MSN's parent company, Microsoft, is located, any web host hosting adult content has to conform to a laundry list of "do this" and "do thats". Rather than deal with it, Microsoft foisted all adult groups off of MSN and onto another server. It used to be that adult groups could get away with posting nudes. Since adult groups are gone, no group on MSN can contain nudity and/or adult content or link to a site that contains it without risk of closure. Our group has always been G rated and as such could never link to ac without being in violation of our ratings guidelines (again risking closure). It's a huge deal to MSN groups owners because MSN acts first and asks questions later, so people are (naturally) cautious.

You can find your site linking to a breast feeding site - here

http://groups.msn.com/communityfeedback/hiddengems1.msnw

(It appears you have inherited MSNs double standard)

I have also read the MSN Website Rating Guidelines and agree to maintain a site under the draconian "all ages" classification - you probably shouldn't even have ever linked to this site because we still link to the original site for past days giveaways - so you are linking to a site that links to a site with breasts and guns.

I agree with the idea suggested by MSN groups: "it is ususally worth investing $10/month in a real dot com style website you can control."

Whats the deal with nakedness?

A correction, our Hidden Gems program does link to a group on breastfeeding which did not have nudity when it was linked to but because of your indication there is drawings now we will be reviewing it in next day or two and removing it if indeed you are correct. Thank you for that information.

You can find the post where the game with violence was mentioned and the posts that follow it rejecting it

http://groups.msn.com/communityfeedback/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=1&ID_Message=1238034&all_topics=1

Our site does not link to a breast feeding site, it did when MSN ran it (MSN has a double standard, do as we say not as we do). And you'll have to let your imagination go further because MSN has closed groups even for a animated smiley of Bart simpson mooning. The do not tolerate any nudity whatsoever. They had to make it an all out ban because too many people tried to take advantage. We are a well known tech support group in groups, one that people come to for help and advice and we have to set the example. We have been linking to here and didn't take this site up on having our banner. But after being treated as we have, no reply to a contact sent in and then being called a prude even though I clearly identified the problem as being MSN's guidelines, cinched it.

As for the violence, you're wrong there. You offered such a game recently and the person who seen the description, which identified it as having violence, left the link to that game out that day.

MSN has strict guidelines. All we asked was a little help in letting us know the nudity was there so we could leave the links off those days. Is all unimportant now because word is already going out that this site is a groups no no.

These games have a thumbnail sized cartoon depiction of the female breast (that can only be viewed by the user specifically choosing to have these as a playing card background - there are numerous other choices if a small drawing of a breast offends)

Are the msn guidelines against nudity to prevent depictions of pornography or child abuse - It sounds a bit rough to imagine anyone shutting down a site for linking to site that has a card game available for download with the option to have a card background of a small cartoon female breast - it is a fairly tenuous link.

Your own site http://groups.msn.com/communityfeedback links to a site on breastfeeding with several illustrations of breasts.

If the "real reason" you cannot link to the games is because you feel someone else (MSN) objects to all the breasts - Will you be back for the games with bombs, guns n jets, killing, terrorists and pigs that massacre wolves with assault rifles?

Clearly a cartoon drawing of a breast is putting young children at more risk of a corrupt mind than having them kill spiders from the back of a flying dragon using bullets of fire and poison gas. Who knows what next? They will be watching television and reading newspapers? That is crazy.

How about you stop making stupid judgments and start reading. It has nothing to do with what I think of the content, it has to do with what MSN thinks. You have millions of users at MSN Groups and word about this site was spreading. You will lose many of those because MSN Groups does not allow the groups to link to any site that has any type of nudity, even cartoons or artistic nudity. They will delete our site for it. I don't think it's too much to ask that if you people want us to link to your site you take the time to give a little warning there is nudity in a game so people know not to link to it that day. And it definitely wasn't too much to ask for a response to our contact. Your attitude says it all though. You have finalized our decision. You sites link will be prohibited and word will be spread throughout groups that not only did you refuse to consider helping us, but you became insultive in the process.

Thats not nudity.

Nothing wrong with a pair of tits.

Women breast feed also, or should that be seen as nudity, my fiance fed both our children that way.

Stop being a prude, it's not pornographic either.

Womens breasts in both.

What was shown?

Recenly you offered a game called Elite Freecell which had nudity in it and no warning whatsoever. We operate an MSN Group with 35,000 members that helps people free with their computer and web site problems and MSN has strict rules regarding nudity and would close us for linking to anything containing it. Many web hosts would do the same.

I sent you a contact asking that you consider at least including a warning when games contain nudity. You didn't even give us the courtesy of a reply.

Today you offer another game, by the same company, DoubleGames, with nudity, and no warning whatsoever. We are removing the thread with links to your site and will be discussing whether we will allow any links to here at all. You ask people to refer friends to your site but you want to place them in danger of losing their sites. Not cool.